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In Reply to: RE: What do you thnk of Oliver Stone? posted by RedGrant on July 25, 2011 at 14:32:15
The epitome of Stone is Natural Born Killers, in which he criticizes the sensationalism of violence in popular culture by...making one of the most sensationalistic, gratuitously violent films in movie history. Thereby becoming a shining example of the trash he thought he was cleverly criticizing. And all his films somehow erode under their own weight in this way.
Still, there are moments in some of his films, such as the desert scene in The Doors, when he manages to visually capture the essence of a subject, time or place. He did it in Born on the Fourth of July, too, with the way he filmed the wheelchair. I could stomach sitting through his films 20 years ago, to enjoy those brief moments. Now I don't have the patience.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Follow Ups:
"The epitome of Stone is Natural Born Killers, in which he criticizes the sensationalism of violence in popular culture by...making one of the most sensationalistic, gratuitously violent films in movie history. Thereby becoming a shining example of the trash he thought he was cleverly criticizing."
I think that was intentional on his part. I don't think he wasn't aware of the revulsion the movie would arouse in the audience.
It's like the logic employed by the serial killer (as voiced by Kevin Spacy) in 'Seven' on gluttony.
"He did it in Born on the Fourth of July, too, with the way he filmed the wheelchair. I could stomach sitting through his films 20 years ago, to enjoy those brief moments. Now I don't have the patience.:
I concurr.
> > I think that was intentional on his part. I don't think he wasn't aware of the revulsion the movie would arouse in the audience. < <
But it didn't arouse revulsion. It was embraced by the MTV generation as a cult classic in the way these same chumps would soon embrace Tarantino, further advancing gratuitive violence in popular culture.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
"But it didn't arouse revulsion." - Jazz inmate
"The epitome of Stone is Natural Born Killers, in which he criticizes the sensationalism of violence in popular culture by...making one of the most sensationalistic, gratuitously violent films in movie history. Thereby becoming a shining example of the trash he thought he was cleverly criticizing." - Jazz inmate
...and you weren't the only one.
"It was embraced by the MTV generation as a cult classic in the way these same chumps would soon embrace Tarantino, further advancing gratuitive violence in popular culture."
Now, I think you're being too harsh on Tarantino. I don't find him to be in the same league as Stone. Unlike Stone, he does care about his characters, and don't use them simply as tools for engaging in 'chain yanking' like Stone.
He quickly took the mantle in using graphic violence gratuitously. But you're right that he's a different animal.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Trying to outdo the last guy, or yourself, is at best banal, tasteless and off-putting. Plus it gives rise to the Eli Roth's of this world.
He was there after all and for all of his faults the man has never shied away from tackling the very difficult and important issues facing US society that so many directors could/should have but were either too chicken shit or too engrossed in maxing box office and feeding the beast.
'Natural Born Killers' was something people either loved or hated, I think it struck just a bit too close to home for many and was just too juggled up for most.
J.B.
... tackle the difficult subjects.
"He was there after all and for all of his faults the man has never shied away from tackling the very difficult and important issues facing US society that so many directors could/should have but were either too chicken shit or too engrossed in maxing box office and feeding the beast."
My problem with Stone is his intellectual hedonism/anarchism. My observation is that he's simply using these difficult subjects to feed his ego, simply by 'yanking' the chain.
After all, isn't that what sophomorism stands for?
I'm not saying that all projects must be ego driven but it is a very important component of the artistic/creative process...yes Stone is personally caught up in his projects, how could a Vietnam Veteran make a film like 'Born On The Fourth Of July' and not invest himself totally within it?He has lived a large part of the modern American Experience, been scarred, uplifted and informed by it so why would that not be part of his art?
BTW, anyone calling BOT4thOJ an ego trip or ego driven is wrong IMO.
One large problem with Stone's style of film making (and it can be off putting, 'Nixon' for instance, was chain yanking on a grand scale IMO) is that there are many folks who have no ability to separate their politics and world view from art and for them he is written off early...most times without having seen the films in question. So if a more politically acceptable director was making these films (with the same content) they would be welcomed by these folks.
J.B.
Edits: 07/26/11
That was about the only Stone movie I could watch repeatedly. Actually, I was a bit surprised at the emotional honesty shown in the movie.
Remember the scene when the mom no longer is proud of her son, when he came home. Remember the scene at the pool room, where Tom Cruise was ranting about his plight, one of the redneck type gave him the cold shoulder and told him to exemplify as a marine.
"I'm not saying that all projects must be ego driven but it is a very important component of the artistic/creative process...yes Stone is personally caught up in his projects, how could a Vietnam Veteran make a film like 'Born On The Fourth Of July' and not invest himself totally within it?
He has lived a large part of the modern American Experience, been scarred, uplifted and informed by it so why would that not be part of his art?"
I agree, my problem is when Stone doesn't show his artist side as seriously as '4th of July' in his other movies, instead he behaves similarly as Michael Moore and Lady Gaga types.
"BTW, anyone calling BOT4thOJ an ego trip or ego driven has questionable critical and observational abilities IMO."
I agree, and I think you missed what I had said about '4th of July' earlier.
Some such subjects guarantee cash flow.
.....call it 'yellow cinematism'!
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