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24.20.160.4
I hang out on the vintage, tube and High efficiency forums a bit and get really good information that has helped me on my audio journey. I decided to upgrade my in-a-box Phillips surround system so I thought I would check out this forum. Thanks for those who gave me some input on receivers at my previous first posting. So what is up with the relentless postings about BD vs HD? I realize it is a pretty important battle for the companies involved and makes it difficult to decide which format to buy components for....BUT... is there a need for endless, blow by blow discussion? It makes it really hard to sort out the intersting and good information on this forum. Maybe, just a suggestion from a new lurker, it could have it's own forum for those that feel the need. Am I way out of bounds here? If so I apologize and will just go back to sifting through all of the postings.
Follow Ups:
A handful of people have essentially hijacked the forum, and I think it's time to look elsewhere for useful content. Some topics need the services of an active moderator, and clearly this is one of them. It's actually a very good time to be keen on high-def, because the selection of high-def movies has never been better, and the cost of the hardware has reached some very affordable levels.
They're everywhere; especially the Blu-geeks. You'd think Stringer's pronouncement that the format war has resulted in a stalemate would calm them down, but it hasn't. It's made them worse.
though it get's pretty boring nowadays since they've tried to put their foot down on any unsubstantiated rumor. it used to be a cesspool of Blu-ray and HD DVD fanboys throwing sh*t at each other eventually causing the moderators to shut down the HD discussion forums for several days.
There are some very good reasons to get passionate about one format or another but I'll try to refrain from initiating any more bickering.
> > There are some very good reasons to get passionate about one format or another but I'll try to refrain from initiating any more bickering. < <
Indeed. I think I'll join you in your attempt to avoid bickering. I admit that I have rather enjoyed beating on our resident hysterical Blu-boy, but it's now beginning to feel like poking a caged monkey with a stick. I've also been reminded yet again that it's not possible to have a civilized discussion with Junior, so I won't bother to try anymore.
You and I, OTOH, seem to have bypassed this kind of behavior. Even though there are points on which we may not agree, it hasn't turned acrimonious. In fact, we've been able to carry on pleasant and informative discussions without invective and vituperation. So, let's try to keep our shining example :-) going.
Cheers!
from ole and JI as KEKL doesn't post much here.
living in Tokyo and doing what I do, I frequently come across info which would, I'm pretty sure, be of interest but choose not to post as it would only further encourage the above mentioned posters.
with the exception of KEKL, HD DVD advocates like Jack and racer are much more informative and measured.
We'll be discussing what's the best dual format players to buy, and not all this format war nonsense.
It IS silly, and those of us who've risen in defense of HD-DVD aren't necessarily predisposed to hating Blu-ray, but there are a couple of folks here who appear bound and determined to dissuade any interest in HD through intimidation and insult; that's just wrong, IMHO.
AuPh
Even with dual-format players, neither HD format will take off until there is a clear winner in the format war.
That's the way the cookie crumbles. Dual format players are for formatophiles who can't make up their minds or want to prolong market confusion. Same thing happened with the high res audio formats and neither of them took off.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
An appropriate image bares repeating! ;0)
You are not alone. I check the forum every few days to see if there's anything interesting posted, then leave. Just commented to my wife yesterday: "Look at this video forum...and all they talk about is..."
Rod
I think we've got some paid shills (or serious fanboys), that's all ;-) The technical bigotry is kind of silly given that both formats have exclusives, and there are no promises that those movies will be released in the other format any time soon. Having competing standards adds uncertainty, but c'est la vie, right?
It boils down to there being two rabid format cheerleaders who precipitate all the shouting. Without them, it would be pretty quiet here - it was a pretty slow forum before Jazz Inmate visited Sony with Jerome (a Sony employee) and got indoctrinated into the Blu Cult, and Ole apparently decided that Blu was his new meal ticket. :-)> > just a suggestion from a new lurker, it could have it's own forum for those that feel the need. < <
This _is_ that forum :-)
Seriously, it's better that it's here. Ole has tried to push his agenda in other Asylum forums, and I believe he was politely asked to keep it here. Others have attempted to crank up the HD vs Blu war in Digital, Hi-rez, and DVD-Audio, but have all been bounced back here. The funniest part was when the fan-boys tried to justify hijacking the DVD-Audio forum, claiming that HD and Blu are really audio formats, because you can turn off your TV and just listen to the soundtrack if you want. Yes - they really did try that as a justification! :-)
It's actually pretty easy to avoid the cheerleading and fanboyism - just don't read any messages from Ole Lund Christiansen, Jazz Inmate, or ZS KEKL.
Having gone through the hirez "format war," I am reminded that those who forget history are condemned to repeat it. It certainly seems to be repeating itself here. The same corporations, some of the same vocal proponents (with intact corporate allegiances), the same stridency and puffery. It's interesting to see the battle has moved to a different arena. In this case, I'm on the sidelines, without HDTV, with no plans to get HDTV.
(speaking of HD DVD and Blu-Ray, not HDTV itself, whose future is pretty much assured by government mandate)Have you never taken a chance on something with an iffy or nebulous future, simply because it looked interesting? The future doesn't come with a money-back guarantee.
Fellini in high-def may not be a reality yet, and there's nary a Fritz Lang movie to be found, but IMO, there are still worthwhile movies to be seen:
Being John Malkovich
Stranger Than Fiction
Goodfellas
Reservoir Dogs
Casablanca
The Usual Suspects
Lost In Translation
Eternal Sunshine Of The Spotless Mind
The Big Lebowski
12 Monkeys
SpeedCasablanca was a bit of a shock because the movie looks like it was made yesterday, and it got me to thinking that I was seeing it like it maybe hasn't been seen since it was new.
I took a chance on SACD when there were only about 100 titles available, so yes, I have done that.
I'm just not much for video in general, thus no HD screen. Despite that, I do buy DVDs that I watch on my 24 inch CRT. And you've picked out some good ones. Here are my comments:
Being John Malkovitch, clever and would deserve another viewing.
Stranger than Fiction, saw it in theater, good, probably won't see again.
Goodfellas, one for the permanent collection, don't have it.
Reservoir Dogs, have it on DVD, would get it on HD.
Casablanca, an all time favorite, would get it on HD.
Usual Suspects, a personal favorite, got it on DVD, would get it on HD.
Lost in Translation, liked it in the theater, but probably don't need to see it again.
Eternal Sunshine, also saw it, don't plan to see it again.
Big Lebowski, got it on DVD, would get it on HD.
12 Monkeys, just OK for me, not one to collect.
Speed, very minor for me, don't plan to see it again.
So I know there are a few out that would tempt me. Not enough I am afraid right now.
OTOH, I just got the Peckinpah box set on DVD and will probably watch Ride the High Country tonight.
Unless they want to watch TV with black bars all the time! :)
and I may well buy an HDTV screen as part of the move, as I probably will get cable or satellite for the first time. And if so, I will probably check out the choices on bluray and HD-DVD to see whether I want one or both. But this is all very low priority for me. Here is why. I love to watch movies in theaters on film. This is much higher resolution than any consumer video format. Once I've seen a movie in a theater, and there are few I miss unless I choose to miss them, then I've seen it. There just are not very many movies I want to watch more than once. I have collected directors like Bergman and Fellini on DVD- I do enjoy their work repeatedly. I also collect film noir. But almost none of the DVDs I own are likely to be available on these new formats. I couldn't care less about Pirates 3- I was dragged to that and it was easily the worst movie I've seen this year. I couldn't care less about Transformers or all these other special effects movies that I chose not to see in theaters. I liked Disturbia a lot, but probably not enough to ever see it again. Same with Superbad. Death At a Funeral is one I will get on DVD. Will it come out on HD or bluray? Not likely.
The mandate to switch isn't to switch to High Definition or widescreen; it's merely to switch from analog broadcasts to digital broadcasts. Nothing will force any program content that's currently in 4:3 to switch to 16:9. Nothing will force higher resolutions.
So - people with 4:3 screens will see black bars on widescreen content; people with 16:9 screens will see black bars on 4:3 content. Same as it ever was.
My name is Ole Lund Christensen, not Christiansen
When I post a link, even without any comments from me, the attacks starts from all the hidden HD DVD fanboys here.
They rarely present new links or facts, and they get very emotional and use strong language.
Do also notice that I use my real name, in the tradition of the Danish Knight Holger Danske, who fought with an open helmet, without hiding his face. See link.
So if you look around, you will find me as the designer of the PUK recording studio and its 10.000 W monitor system with 4x30". It was used by George Michael and Elton John for their best selling recordings.
I also designed the GamuT D 200 amplifiers, which HP and Valin praised in TAS. And Professor in Mathematics at UCLA, Robert E. Greene in TAS 124 called my work "Exploring the Boundaries of the Possible"
Therefore I am happy to have much better mealtickets than promoting Blu Ray, I am one of the highest paid loudspeaker engineers in Europe, and my clients pay luxery hotels for me.
But as I have written several times, simply do NOT read my posts, if you do not like them.
But if you want to read links about Blu Ray, and make your own judgement, then just read my posts.
especially the work on behalf of tsunami victims. So why make yourself the Zekyl here??
Examine your motives: just like when you realized about the power cords making a difference, is there any chance you are making an ass of yourself? We have word for it, haughty. If you don't have a dog in this race, why must you post every "My side is winning!"? Why would you be happy if people here bought equipment that ends up useless and worthless, what do you get out of that? Vindication? Do you need that?
HINT: When Jazz Inmate eggs you on, it's time to pull the plug.
Neither side will win, both are already withering. But I will take no joy from seeing mediocrity in video succeed like it did in audio.
Dear Duilawyer,
thank you very much for the time you spent on this post. I do appreciate it.
Clearly my enthusiasm for Blu Ray and its progress in the market must have given you and others here a different impression, than I intended.
I will try to improve my posts.
I have no wish to hurt people, who have bought HD DVD movies and players,
indeed my intention is to do the same, when I can find a good deal.
The cheapest in Denmark is USD 559.80 with 5 movies.
It will not end up useless and worthless, because the movies can play for many years. (and the player plays normal DVDs) Indeed I suspect some HD DVD discs will become collector’s items and rise in value, because they will not be reissued due to low sales. Like concerts of music.
The reason I promote Blu Ray so intensely, is that I also take no joy from seeing inferior formats succeed. I want my HD sound and picture, and I believe Blu Ray is my best chance. I will not get one more chance, it is now or never.
Yes, downloads of video will improve, but the best experts in that field tell me, that it will take 7 to 10 years to extend the fast HD infrastructure to enough people. And many places will never get it.
I am 54 years old, so I want HD now! So you can see my motives are purely selfish in this case:-)
Please tell me, who is Zekyl?
Best wishes and thank you again
Ole
It was not intentional. If it was intentional, I would have called you Ole Lund Cheerleader, which is more fitting :-)
> > When I post a link, even without any comments from me, the attacks starts from all the hidden HD DVD fanboys here. < <
See, this is the crux of the issue. You have a clearly-demonstrated bias, and an obvious agenda. You post a lot of data to support your agenda, and much of it is very biased. Given your bias and agenda, you don't have to post any comments for people to know that you are cheerleading.
To further cause issues, you accuse anyone who does not agree with your agenda or care for the biased way in which you promote it, of being a "hidden HD DVD fanboy." That's the trouble with you fanboys - you get so blinded by your biases that you think everyone else is equally as biased as you.
> > Do also notice that I use my real name, in the tradition of the Danish Knight Holger Danske < <
Actually, I don't really care what you call yourself. If we were engaged in a business transaction, your real name would matter to me. Here, it really doesn't matter.
> > Therefore I am happy to have much better mealtickets than promoting Blu Ray, I am one of the highest paid loudspeaker engineers in Europe, and my clients pay luxery hotels for me. < <
Gee, I'm just soooo happy for you. I'm one of the highest paid business/technology consultants in my industry, and I stay in luxury hotels too :-) We're great people, you and I :-) However, unlike you I don't feel the need to parade my professional credentials to bolster my opinions.
> > simply do NOT read my posts, if you do not like them. < <
I'll offer you the same benefit - do not read my replies, if you do not like them.
> > See, this is the crux of the issue. You have a clearly-demonstrated bias, and an obvious agenda. < <
This is where you equal opportunity adopters lose your marbles. You mistake an informed decision to adopt the better format with "bias". Being open-minded doesn't mean that you forget about critical format specs like capacity, nor that you pretend it doesn't matter. That is not open minded. That is empty-headed. You masquerade your failure to understand the superiority of one format as being "unbiased" when in fact, by ignoring capacity you are showing much bias.
> > You post a lot of data to support your agenda, and much of it is very biased. < <
Much of it is sales figures that are verifiable and easy to prove wrong if incorrect. But the fact is they are correct.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
;0)
a reasonable video bitrate.
You're the dude in the chair getting the chip implant, not me. I based my buying decision on attributes of the formats.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
;0)
Jack informs.
What's the fascination with pretending two formats that differ by 20 gigs in their capacity are equal...and then pretending people who correctly identify the differences--including the higher sales of blu-ray--are "biased" or "gloating".
In forums where you're supposed to share and discuss information, the key is the information. As long as it's correct, that should be all that matters.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
than the technical superiority of the format. I'm afraid Toshiba's strategy of cheap standalone players and the (badly needed from HD DVD'S POV) Paramount defection has leveled the playing field so-to-speak.
I'm a firm believer that HD DVD is crippling Universal/Warner/Paramount releases because of bandwidth/storage limitations (including Warner Blu-ray's because they are saving money using HD DVD-crippled encodes) but that argument doesn't mean anything to J6P with typically modest HT systems. > 95% of the people out there couldn't care less about lossless/uncompressed audio and high bitrate video encodes. In fact, i suspect they (and the studios) care more about special features which, unfortunately, is an area Blu-ray is still playing catchup on.
Only if Blu Ray wins will we get good sound from most movies. So staying neutral is wrong if you care about quality.
Every other bit of news would pale in comparison to Warner's making an announcement to go format-exclusive.
Attach rates ? Wal-mart sales?, Nielsen pie charts ? Australian sales, HD DVD in China ? Forget about it. what matters is studio support.
Warner can end the game, and they know it. Price?
either way.
Jack
Warner going HD DVD still maintains the stalemate.
Warner is the number 2 studio in BD, one title shy of Sony (94 Vs. 95). They are putting out 1/4 of the BDA's titles, much more than most. Add the fact that *if* they were to go HD DVD way (that's a big if), it would be the second major studio to defect. As you know, perception is everything.
Time will tell.
Jack
And virtually all their releases won't fit on a 30G disk without a re-encode process (in addition to the quality hit). It would be painful for those Studios to switch.
Security has been cracked on DVDs for some time now-yet I don't see them stopping production. And as stated before, 1/2 of their discs are BD-25s. They just won't be able to use MPEG-2. No loss there.
The truth is, regardless of what side the studios are on now, they will change if its in their best interests. Some will take longer. I think Disney was the last to adopt DVD-and I believe they were VHS exclusive for quite a while.
Jack
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
Blu-ray with his actions of propounding its sucesses and features here, showing he hs some stake in the matter.
Not the same.
That's why one fanboy like yourself cannot recognize another fanboy of the same product.
so long as it's got substance.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
And no haughtiness.
.
.
thank you for your detailed response. I am unbiased in reading, I do read all posts:-)
You called Blu Ray my new mealticket. That implied I am payed to post these links, and that had to be corrected, so I provided information on my self to counter it.
You are still fighting with a closed helmet.
I think it is an honor to cheerlead for Blu Ray. It is the best system, and it is gaining ground every day and making profits by selling on quality.
Provided HD DVD soon stop, Blu Ray have a real chance of replacing DVD.
But HD DVD confuses many people, so they buy nothing.
Dual formats players or discs are expensive, so we better have a quick end to this format war.
People can read my links and make their own judgements on bias. They do NOT need all these added comments to make up their minds.
If Blu Ray did not excist, I would promote HD DVD. My real agenda is against DVD and its DD sound.
(nt)
> > it was a pretty slow forum before Jazz Inmate visited Sony with Jerome < <
We visited Dolby labs, not Sony. Get your facts straight. The rest of your post was similarly fraught with BS.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
;0)
I regret the error, but it is an inconsequential one. The fact is that you did engage with a Sony employee and came out of that meeting even more rabid than you were prior (if that's possible). It really doesn't matter whether you got indoctrinated into the Blu Cult by Sony at Sony or at Dolby Labs - you still joined the cult!
one would join the Blu Cult. :)
...there's a big difference between merely joining a cult, and being a recruiter/mouthpiece for it. One is a zealot. The other is an obnoxious, pushy zealot :-)
Seems like you aren't a demon for details and it's costing you.
All I did when we went to Dolby Labs was listen to True HD vs lossless PCM audio. You'd have to be pretty dang dense to characterize that the way you just did.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
...because you can be accused of the same thing. In your case it's an accurate label.
> > All I did when we went to Dolby Labs was listen to True HD vs lossless PCM audio. < <
Liar. You went with a Sony employee to see the preparation of a Blu-ray demo disc. You even said so yourself in previous posts.
that TrueHD may not be as "transparent" to the master as Dolby would have you believe. That would normally be pretty hard to believe until you consider Dolby employs some nonsense called "Dialog normalization" which to me implies digital volume control and screwing around with the original audio presentation.
TrueHD also has dialnorm. It's never been a problem in the past, so I wouldn't be so quick to blame problems on the TrueHD codec like some people are trying to do. Rather, it's more likely that problems people are experiencing are due to crappy implementations of the TrueHD decoder, and player limitations, especially on Blu-ray players.As I noted in a previous post about TrueHD on the Panasonic players, 'if you playback TrueHD on the Panasonic DMP-BD10 and BD10A players via the analog outs, the player overrides speaker size/distance settings, making them all "large" and equidistant. Also, if the number of speakers doesn't match what the soundtrack is configured for (i.e. it's a 7.1 and you only have 5.1), you'll lose information.'
That could certainly cause "transparency" problems. I suspect the Panasonics aren't the only players to have these kinds of implementation issues.
I can live with dialnorm for lossy DD, but I'm far less sure about it for an alleged lossless audio format. While I don't have any direct experience on the subject, I've heard from a couple of sources, the use of dialnorm during the TrueHD encoding process results in a decoded end-result which may not be transparent to the master (and it can't be bit for bit if it actually screws around with the volume levels). How much of this is FUD and/or improperly-implemented decoding in the players has yet to come out.
...because you can be accused of the same thing.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
At the core of the debate is whether blu-ray's greater capacity is important.
That's it in a nutshell. The rest of the debate is inconsequential.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
A la VHS vs. Betamax. You have early adopters on both formats who sometimes have a tendency to preach their cause often because of the investment they've made in their chosen formats and the desire not to be on the losing side. This bickering shut down the the High def portion of the AVSforum for a few days while the moderators tried to figure out how to end the vitriole.
The behavior seems to have spilled onto this forum as well. I've been guilty of it too; I try to stay dispassionate but I also want a particular format to win and make the other format disappear even though I have dual format player.
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