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In Reply to: RE: Is there a HT "recevier" with no amplifiers? posted by Duilawyer on February 06, 2008 at 07:58:53
Right now the ones available with decoding of DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD have various issues (lip sync, loss of signal, etc). And what's worse is that the starting price for the issues is $1600.
Follow Ups:
features plus 6 amplifiers. I want the same receiver without the amps. Should be $200.00, plus an extra $20 for HDMI inputs.
Which one? How can it have dts MA and Dolby TrueHD without HDMI?
Kal
But what does that cost to add to the unit, $50.00?
So I should be able to buy a processor without 6 amplifiers for under the $880(?) I paid.
OK. So, your processor does not meet the stated criteria.
As for your question, there is no economic incentive for a cheap pre/pro compared with AVRs if you consider the market volume. Better for the manufacturers to have a bigger mark-up on fewer items.
Kal
"Better for the manufacturers to have a bigger mark-up on fewer items."
Denon has 13 (thirteen!) 7.1 channel Home Theater receivers listed on their Receivers page. Why the hell can't they put out one moderately priced surround preamp/processor? Surely the $1200 AVR-2808's seven internal 110wpc amps are worth 400 "marked-up" dollars, so that $800 example seems about right. If you want a separate (non-receiver) surround preamp/processor from Denon, it'll cost you $7k for their AVP-A1HDCI.
The rediculous part is that they don't offer preamp outputs until you get to the 4 highest priced models (the ones with the most amp output wattage for crying out loud!), coincidently one of which you would need to buy in order to get DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD advanced audio decoding. If they are putting preamp outputs on a receiver, they must intend for the buyer to use them. But if the buyer intended to use the preamp outputs, they more than likely had no use for the receiver's amps in the first place! That's an evil strategy and that kind of shit needs to stop.
I'm not singling out Denon, either: Pioneer, Onkyo, Yamaha, Sony, etc get the same grade of "F" as well when it comes to this topic. They all need to stop dicking the consumers and show some sense of restraint re: their greed.
This year they are comming out wiyh the first pre-pro in years, probably in the 2.5 to 3k range. This is the first year have seen anything less than 5k from anyone.
Based on the success of the Integra maybe we will see more. If there is a market somebody will fill it. I myself think that if you go to cheap it is kind of like putting 300hsp in a Chevy Cobalt. You can still get all the gadgets and go 140mph but how will it handle and how many would they actually sell.
If it's a Chevy, it'll handle like crap -- regardless of the engine that's put in it. But electronics aren't cars, so they pretty much just sit there (something Chevys should be able to "handle").
At $1200, the Denon AVR-2808 is a nice receiver. Looking at the non-amplifier specs of that model, I'd say it's on reasonably solid ground with the majority of A/V enthusiasts. As a matter of fact, aside from some minor differences and looking at it from an audio quality/spec perspective, it pretty much holds its own against its higher priced brothers. How many will they sell? Probably in the high hundreds to -- maybe -- a few thousand, mainly due to the fact that if you want Denon gear, you have to have this receiver at a minimum to get (1) DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD decoding and (2) preamp outputs. The bottom line is that Denon wants a minimum of $1200 for advanced audio decoding and preamp outputs; consequently, the rest is just additional "stuff" (value added material, if you will).
To make my point, taking the above into consideration and if you didn't need the amplifier section, what model is the more likely choice based on this
... then I would get the cheapest one. I guess you have to decide if any of the extra cost goes into anything else of value to you.
You are looking at it from logical but particular point of view. I suspect that the market research indicates that there is profit to be optimized with such an array of AVRs but that there is so little market for a low-priced pre/pro that they do not bother. I do not have those numbers but the manufacturers probably do.
BTW, how many years did it take for Denon to market and pre/pro and, now that they are doing it, how much does it cost? I take that to indicate what they see as a profitable effort. All that despite our crying need for a low cost pre/pro with all the bells and whistles.
Kal
It's long overdue. Whatcha think, Kal?
If there was a market, someone would make one, I think.
Kal
Not many folks would want to match up "cheap" preamp stages with good amplifiers.
No lip sync problems here. HDMI handshake is here for the near term future, at least (for everybody). Not that big of a headache. I paid $1,550 for the 9.8. For the performance and feature set, it is an absolute steal.
I agree. The Integra 9.8 was just what I needed and it's an impressive preamp. Of course, I don't use it at all for two channel audio, but for HT I enjoy the connectivity, decoding options, Audyssey and compatibility with the PS3. Classe and other beautique manufacturers will soon be introducing products with comparable features at much higher pricepoints, so I don't see why $1600 is considered prohibitive.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
Why is it so expensive to get a surround preamp ($1600) that decodes the advanced audio codecs when their are receivers with preamp outputs for less? I've been bitching about this issue for the past 10 years, but it doesn't seen like the CE manufacturers are willing to do anything about it.
I'll use Denon as an example. Denon's lineup doesn't give you preamp outputs until you hit $1200 (their 2808 receiver). Denon products target the A/V enthusiast, but many enthusiasts have dedicated amps to power their speakers. They don't need a receiver, so why not sell the "2808-lite" -- a 2808 without the amplification -- for around $800? I know the real reason (it's $), although Denon's answer would be "quantity" -- a BS answer, considering their High End preamp's price.
the numbers still say they should be able to sell it WITHOUT POWER AMPS $400-500?? Maybe less. So where is a medium quality one, that matches their best receviers, for $1200?
Hit eBrochure on the linked page.
Probably not much of a market for one at $500. I would say the Integra comes pretty close to your medium quality criteria at $1600 and would be well over $2000 with the amps.
The CE manufacturers don't offer them!
I don't know all the reasons the preamps cost more than receivers, but I think design has something to do with it. The Intergra has balanced outputs, and I'm not sure the cheaper receivers compare. And yes, I'm sure marketing does play a role. The separates market is more of an audiophile crowd. Those shopping for a receiver are a notch above the HT-in-a-box crowd.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
Those shopping for a receiver are a notch above the HT-in-a-box crowd.
Could that be true?
As an owner of the Denon 5700 (now replaced by the 9.8 and separate amps), I can say that for the price of the new Denon receiver, one could purchase the 9.8 and an excellent multi-channel amp and likely outperform the Denon by some margin.
How good is the power supply in a "mainstream" reciever? For any component to deliver good sound or video, you have to have a good power supply.
Separates are the way to go, but the prices for the surround preamp/processors need to "go" as well -- down! There's no valid reason a decent surround preamp/processor (something like the Denon 2808-lite that I described) can't be offered for $800.
Most will opt for separates at that pricepoint.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
Actually, I think the 2 channel performance of the 9.8 is excellent top to bottom, but only when using a transport via HDMI to the 9.8. I am playing CD, DSD, and DVD-A (all in 2 channel) using an Oppo 980H as transport. I find no need for a separate 2 channel preamp for digital sources (only).
The analog inputs are the 9.8's weakness, and I am currently searching for a 2 channel preamp w/HT bypass to use with the phono pre.
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