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I'm ready to pull the trigger...looking at several LCD TVs and had a few general questions:
* Does a 120 Hz refresh rate make a significant improvement..is it worth the extra $$?
* My viewing distance is 9-11 feet from the TV....is 46" too small and is 52" too large? I'm leaning towards 46"
* Is it worth getting an extended service plan? I'm considering Samsung, LG, and Toshiba Regza
Thanks
Follow Ups:
Word has it that Oppo has one in the works, so I'd wait for that. None of the blu-ray players with the possible exception of Sony are that great anyway. If you haven't see a good up converting DVD player in action yet, I think you'd be pleasantly surprised.
If you're talking about image quality, and you didn't say, I think ALL the BR players produce a fantastic image. While the great upsampling players make DVDs look better, the image quality isn't nearly as good as that of 1080P-mastered images.
There just isn't enough info in a 480I image to look great interpolated to 720P or 1080, I or P, IMO.
-------------------------------------------------------
Tin-eared audiofool and 1000-yard benchrest shootist.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
nt
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Plasmas aren't going away anytime soon. As a matter of fact, by mid to late 2009 you will see performance and capability in a consumer display matched by no other (search for "extreme contrast concept"). The next step for plasma is 10-lumen tech and it's going to seriously make an impact when it reaches the showroom floors.
Plasma glass is made by Panasonic (Matshusita), LG, Samsung and Funai. Pioneer is making their last plasma glass this year: next year Panasonic will handle their glass manufacture and Pioneer will use their own electronics.
You can get a 58" Panasonic 1080p consumer model (1920x1080) for $3005 delivered. The 720p broadcast model (1366x768) can be delivered for $2468 (no speakers -- you provide your own which can be much better than what comes attached to today's consumer displays, no stand -- you can purchase the appropriate stand or get a wall mount for around $100, no tuner -- you use the tuner in your VCR/DVR/cable box/satellite receiver/etc). There will be a 1920x1080 broadcast model later this year.
Plasma's color accuracy is better than LCD as it's based on the phosphor technology of CRT. Today's plasmas leave the factory with 60 - 100,000 hours to half-brightness (60,000 = 6 hours a day for 27 years). That's not lifespan, which is even longer.
If you talked to a salesman at CC or BB, the 120Hz refresh rate they are referring to is the "live" or "fluid motion" interpolated picture I mentioned: it's not the proper 120Hz refresh that shows each frame 5x (ie, a multiple of 24Hz). Again, make sure your eyes and the eyes of anyone else watching will be able to handle that look for extended viewing if you want that type of picture.
Samsung is facing a class action lawsuit due to their lack of support and downright pathetic customer service with regard to their Blu-ray players. During the first 2 years they produced DVD players with digital video outputs, the returns were close to half of the sales (think about it) at CC and BB. They're a second rate company producing second rate products. They don't invent: they copy and do it poorly.
Thanks....you're making my life difficult. 8^) Tweeter is selling a 52" Samsung LCD (LN52A550) for $1959 and throwing in a Samsung blu-ray DVD player.
I'm considering that and the Panasonic Viera 50" plasma (50PZ85U), also $1950 but I don't get the player
I'm going over there tomorrow to view both
If you are interested in 'tweakability' the Samsung 550/650 series plasmas far exceed Panasonic in that regard. ISF techs love them because they can be tweaked almost entirely through the user menu. The control over color accuracy and gamma exceeds Panasonic or entry level Pioneer (5010, 5020, etc.)
The 3 by the way, are considered the top plasmas on the consumer market today.
Go with Pioneer for the best black levels, and very good color, and very good processing.
Panasonic for good out of the box performance, and 2nd best black levels.
The Samsung for good black levels, probably average for today's plasmas, but the best color accuracy and gamma. And don't underestimate the value of gamma.
Check out the latest edition of Widescreen Review for the Samsung 550 review and calibration, and the link below.
I have a 5000 duo player, and it is flawless..basically playing any format I throw at it with finesse. Samsung turned the corner this year in jumping on firmware releases and hopefully in customer support.
I've not had a lot of faith with them in the past, and for good reason.
Right now it's my T-9 non-iPod player, the 5000, and the PN50A650 plasma soon to arrive. So far, not a single complaint.
What bothers me most about Sony is their bent on making interfaces proprietary. I just sold my rear proj. LCD sony.. which did very well.
I really think their biggest accomplishment on the consumer front was the Trinitron tube. LOL
A very good one at that!
The Panny PZ85 is the best bang for the buck out there right now. If you buy it you will not be disappointed.
...beware that Sammy BR player.Some big box store somewhere near you is always running a special or a sale. I mean it, take your time. Look until you can tell the difference between displays.
I don't game, so burn-in isn't an issue for me, although I don't think it's much of an issue for plasmas anymore.
If you watch mainly brightly lit source material, like sports and TV shows, maybe the blacks and shadow detail on LCDs won't matter to you like they're deal killers for me. There are no perfect displays - yet.
Seriously, I know how hard it is not to pull the trigger when you want a new TV, but do your research first.
It's double jeopardy!
Seriously, I'm willing to bet that your choice would be much easier if you brought over a calibration disc and had both of them set up properly. In the store, neither is anywhere close to being correct.
As has been said by several people, take your time. I'll add that you shouldn't make any decisions based on what the salesman tells you and don't feel pressured to make a decision ASAP. If you can, take some familiar DVDs to compare on each display. If one of those DVDs is a calibration disc, all the better.
Good luck with your display journey and, most of all, be confident that you'll be happy with the purchase. Your display is the last thing you should be thinking about when trying to enjoy your movie collection.
CC has the Panasonic for $1699. As suggested take your time. I almost bought the Panasonic myself, but decided to go with a 52 Sharp Aquos instead...no worries about burn in. I see a lot of LCD bashing..lol. That's OK I still enjoy mine. No major problems with motion blurring. No more than a Plasma digital chipping.Depending on the processing of the LCD, will determine the motion artifacts. Unless you watch a lot of live sports 120 Hz refresh rate is useless.
If you ever plan to use this flat panel for a PC monitor or games. The LCD is still the better option. LCDs have come a long ways in the last few years.
I own both a plasma and LCD. Nothing wrong with Samsung. They make some killer panels. Those new LCD Samsung's have a terrific picture!
My only gripe with Plasma's is the burn in and the noise some of them give off. Less weight and heat are also better with the LCDs.
My 52 inch LCD is 62 pounds while the Plasma 42 inch is just under 100.
So pick your poison..there's no perfect panel whether LCD or Plasma.
Burn in really isnt much of an issue with plasma TV anymore. The early ones did have a problem, but the ones produced today seem much better in that regard. This is backed up by Consumer Reports, as well.
From Consumer Reports..."(Burn-in might have been more of a problem with early plasma sets. We've seen no evidence of permanent image retention in our short-term tests, and recent anecdotal evidence from our own staffers and online forum participants hasn't turned up any burn-in issues in typical long-term use at home.)"
Yeah that's what the salesman told me before I bought my unit. It still had burn in...which didn't take long. On a positive note, once I stopped using it with my PC and it sat unused and unplugged for a few days the burn in was gone.As long as I don't use it this way any more, burn in shouldn't be a problem.
My LCD shows absolutely no signs of burn in... not even a hint.
For people just using the plasma's for watching TV..they should be fine.
If it went away, then it wasnt really burn in. Real burn in is there to stay. You probably had a type of 'persistance', where a ghost of the image stays for a short time due to the persistance of the phospher. I have even seen this in LCDs (my computer monitors). If I have something on screen for a long time, I can see a ghosting of it afterwards. It slowly fades away after the guilty application is closed. After 10 min. or so, its gone.
Yeah that was the problem with my plasma. Unfortunately the image wouldn't fade away after ten minutes. Not even after several hours. It wasn't until I replaced it with the LCD and completely unplugged it... did it clear up.I can leave my LCD on an image for hours..no ghosting or image retention at all...zero.
It's still pro's and cons on brand and questions.
1) Is Samsung reliable? A friend of mine was buying a LCD at Christmas and wanted to know the difference between 720 and 1080. I told him that on the size and whether he was using a blu-ray player made the decision. He was told at CC that to avoid Samsung products like the plague. I and all my friends have nothing but Samsung DLP and Plasma's. No they don't look as good as the Panny or the Pioneer but they are good for the price.
2) Is 120hz worth it? I still see stacatto artifacts in 120hz, especially in sports. Plasma is much better if your room doesn't have a lot of sunlight.
3) Should I get 4x" or a 5x". The rule of thumb is this is decided by your wall space. You want the largest size you can fit, unless you sit less than 4' from it. The average is 9 to 11 so I would go with a 58" Panny or 60" Pioneer. This is decided by your wallet, you may opt for Samsung when you see some of the prices.
4) IMO and experience is that the Panny 58" is the best price per performance TV made. The Pioneer 60" is marginally better at a higher price.
5) Should I listen to suggestions from brick and mortar sales people? IMHO, NEVER! I was looking for a Blu-Ray player. I have allways used Denon players and have the old 2900 for the last five years. When I asked about Denon players the salesperson told me Denon didn't make DVD players albeit he was standing next to the 2500 Blu-Ray model! Realta HQV chipsets and Burr Brown Dac's were beyond his interest. I have gotten the best advice from this forum as far as price and performance and good regard to brand loyalty.
Hope this experience helps. I have sold and been a end user for many years in Audio and have suffered from the upgrade bug, which is stupid because the Marantz SR8002thx I bought in Feb will be format obsolete by the time I finish this email.
Thanks for the great info. The CC guy was pushing LCD over plasma and specifically LG, Samsung, and Sony.
He said plasma was going away in a year and not to buy it...that shouldn't stop me from considering it, should it?
I think 58" will be too expensive...thinking 50"
Net question..is there any reason to avoid plasma for LCD? The gist of comments here is that plasma is better
...you have bright, direct sunlight on your display, because the glass on a plasma is more reflective. LCDs are often recommended if you have a sunny room where light control is difficult. My advice - buy a plasma close the curtains or pull the shade down.Plasmas are not going away in a year. There are fewer makers, but they are big players, and they have new technology coming in the next year.
I wouldn't pay much attention to CC salespeople, I know more than they do and I'm no expert. They work on commission - nothing wrong with that, so do I - but they tend to promote what's popular or being pushed by their sales manager (i.e. mot profitable. BB folks are on salary, not that I'm recommending their advice either.)
The upper end Sonys are the best LCDs I've personally seen, but as I said below, other than the Sonys the blacks and shadow detail on most LCDs just aren't quite good enough for me. I also think the plasmas are smoother and more film like, and since I watch a lot of movies, that's important to me. If you mainly watch cable, it might be less important to you.
Even though a lotta people love their LCD displays, the motion trails drive me nut. A lotta of people love their Bose sound systems, that soesn't mean they sound good.
Also, if you go back to look at plasmas keep in mind the LCDs in a big box store can easily be set to show a punchier, brighter picture that really pops off the screen than a nearby plasma. But you will soon get tired of this torch mode in your home.
If you're gonna watch sports and/or movies, I recommend you get 52" or larger, if you have the wall space and $$s. 11 feet is pretty far away, relatively speaking.
Thanks...huge help.
Now I have more to think about...I was set to get LCD, but most people here seem to like plasma.
I think 58" will be too expensive for me ;^(
Can I post some model #'s after I do the research on price and get your opinion?
If you're like me and you don't buy big ticket TVs every five years...take your time on this selection. Be sure the folks here will have an opinion on anything, lol!
I like going to my local BB with the Magnolia's, because the HT showroom is darkened and you are left alone to adjust sets to your hearts content. Most of the displays in show rooms aren't properly adjusted, with brightness and contrast turned way up and annoying processing "enhancements" engaged.
FYI, be careful of judging PQ when its showing digital animation. Cars, The Incredibles, Shrek...they all look fabulous on digital displays and that tells you nothing. Try to look at displays showing source material you're either familiar with or simialr to what you watch. I bring along DVDs of my fave torture tests - Dark City and Master and Commander.
All we're asking is that you consider plasma. Several folks here have used the Panasonics and been very happy with the PQ and perfromance. I think they are probably the best bang for the buck hands down. If I had the scratch right now I'd get a Pioneer Kuro. But I don't.
You look at them all and decide what looks best and fits your needs. After you ask us, of course, ;-)
> > > * My viewing distance is 9-11 feet from the TV....is 46" too small and is 52" too large? I'm leaning towards 46" < < <
Get the largest you can afford, that will still fit in your room. 52" isn't really large enough for your viewing distance, but it may have to do. See my post below.
Jack
Thanks...any opinions about plasma vs lcd also the 120hz refresh rate on lcd?
I prefer plasma personally, but that would depend on the ambient light situation in your room. No comment on 120 refresh rate.
Jack
You ask, so here's my end on this: how about looking at plasmas? I too went through the 'I don't want burn' fear routine, and there isn't any of it anymore, short of extreme-long-term ignorant abuse.
I was about to get an LCD screen for all the time I was reading and comparing (and I work in broadcast TV, so I am around screens all the time) and then, with some web sites, I found that the top of the mountain had two names: Panasonic and Pioneer. For solid, crazy black levels and stunning color. AND for your question, no motion BS, at any frequency.
The last set I looked at in a box store before we bought was a Sony LCD. It was somewhat flat-looking and with the granular after-effects in motion we hate. And it was at 120 refresh (I personally punched up the menu.) I'll be the first to say it was set for the typical 'super-bright' sales look, but even with that, it was not accpetable.
The set we have is a Panasonic Viera 58-inch 1080 plasma. We view it from about 12ft, mostly thorugh a Sony Playstation 3 delivering stunning Blu-Ray discs through an HDMI digital connection, and If I didn't think my wife would have castrated me, I would have gone for the 65-inch version. But even at 58, it's enough to make you weep.
There really are only two restraints with HiDef sets: the size of your wall and the size of your wallet.You get used to very large images very quickly when they have the quality to really please your eyes.
So, I didn't want to sidetrack your thread. But please look at the Pannys before you decide. They are well worth it.
CC.
> > > There really are only two restraints with HiDef sets: the size of your wall and the size of your wallet. < < <
The things to consider are really the size of the screen, the resolution (assume 1080 these days) and the viewing distance. See chart below. I'm sitting about 8 feet from my 60" set.
Jack
Thanks....I am not ruling out plasmas. I just was concerned because it seems like no one is making them anymore except Panasonic and Pioneer, and I figured it was dying out as a format. Then I figured "why is it dying out?" "were there issues with them? Is LCD better?" Etc
We bought a Panasonic 50" plasma last summer, and couldnt be happier. Plasma still has the lead in picture quality. Even standard def. DVDs look great.
Very tricky to make the glass. But they're not particularly more prone to ills and failures than the LCDs.
For quality of image plasmas would be my first choice. The only LCDs I could get enthusiastic about might be the Sonys. The rest don't have black enough blacks or good enough shadow detail for me. (They're getting better, but Sony is getting better faster.)
If you're sitting 11 ft away you need a 52 incher at minimum. If you're gonna pop for an HD display don't weeny out. 46 is smaller than you think unless you only watch talking heads on CNN.
I will second the Panny plasmas, great value for the $$.
* Does a 120 Hz refresh rate make a significant improvement..is it worth the extra $$?
If you're referring to the interpolation process which makes film/video look more "live", that's up to you. I would spend some serious demo time with any display having this feature to be sure you, and any family members or other viewers, can watch this for an extended period of time. As others have said, at first it looks cool and seems to be something that would make the viewing experience that much better. However, after extended viewing time, the effect may affect you in a less desirable way (like when you start noticing the artifacts).
If you're referring to the ability to properly refresh, without interpolation, at 5x the rate of film, then see the link at the bottom of this post for a list of displays which carry out this process correctly.
* My viewing distance is 9-11 feet from the TV....is 46" too small and is 52" too large? I'm leaning towards 46"
If you get a 46", there's the chance you'll regret not getting the 52" later on. If you get the 52", you won't regret having 6 extra inches. [insert dick joke here]
* Is it worth getting an extended service plan? I'm considering Samsung, LG, and Toshiba Regza
Is it still legal to get a Samsung without an extended service plan? Just axin'.
:-)
Thanks. I guess I'm not sure about the 120hz. The store called it a refresh rate and said it helps with sports and fast moving images from looking jerky.
Are Samsungs considered unreliable? Should I avoid them? The guy at Circuit City sure liked them, but he probably is paid to push them
According to Consumer Reports, The most reliable LCD (and Plasma) is Panasonic. Sony, Sharp, Samsung, Toshiba and JVC come in second, and are tied for reliability. Next is Philips, followed by Hitachi, with Dell in last place. This is based on nearly 75,000 responses about flat panel TVs, so should be a good indicator.
Yup.
I've sold several Sam Sung products in the past three years, and all of them have performed flawlessly except for one rear projection set which had the light control PCB replaced under factory warranty. I've had no issues with the plasma sets, nor with the blue Ray machines.
IIRC, Sam Sung also is the major subcontractor for Sony and builds all their LCD sets. So any reflection of their workmanship should be reflected on Sony products which admittedly have suffered more failures than ever before, again in my experience. The higher Sony failure rate was evident long before Sony inked the deal with Sam Sung , though. Their 60 inch plasmas, when available, seem to suffer repeated failures on a timely basis.
As usual YMMV.
Stu
Or rather, my friend Greg's mileage. Very bad luck with his 2 Sammy DLP RPs and his current Samsung BR player. The line appears to offer good bang for the buck but I'd be nervous based on his experiences. I like to plug 'em in and forget 'em.
I haven't bought a recent Sony product but I liked the looks of their latest XBR LCDs, at least for an LCD.
Oddly, I have a Phillips HDTV, a company which I think most people think has a terrible reliability record. But other than some UI quirks, this has been a good, issue free display.
As I owned a Samsung BRP with the updated firmware in place I can’t be happier with its performance as it’s much better against my PS 3 (which was my reference for over a year or so) in every aspect of video and sound quality again with all the firmware upgrades in place.
I’ve read most of the blogs in the ‘net about the Samsung blu-ray player's shortcoming and issues but so far I haven’t experience them with this model the BD-UP5000 could be that the one I bought is a lemon.
If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing well
(Proverb)
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