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In Reply to: RE: Went to Costco to buy the New Vizio locally dimming LED LCD, BUT walked away with Plasma posted by Gmood1 on October 10, 2009 at 22:45:35
The burn-in issue does bother me, but luckily, I don't play games or computers on this TV.One thing that does nag my mind is the fact I do watch quite a bit of 4:3 material, and the side bars causing burn-in. Or movies with bars on top and bottom.. I absolutely HATE stretched 4:3 material in "Wide" mode!
What Joe says comforts my worries, but I can't really find strong documentation elsewhere:
"Image burn-in pretty much experienced a dramatic decrease about 6 years ago with the introduction of 60,000 hour model plasmas. Even before that, there were/are simple procedures to follow and use that made this issue negligible. Nearly every plasma made in the last 3 years will not have an issue with burn-in."
Edits: 10/11/09Follow Ups:
Yeah that is a nice quote but untrue as burn-in is still an issue and very easy to do. You won't realize it till it's there. I've watched some 4:3 as well and found ghosting after wards. Burn-in is very real I can assure you, I have a plasma with this issue to prove it and it is much less than 6 years old.You normally see it when you change to a channel with lighter colors and yes it sticks out like a sore thumb.
I can leave my LCD on a fixed screen all day and all night(use it as a 52 inch Hi-def portrait). There is absolutely no burn in to speak off. Since I watch all movies from my HTPC hard drive library, I'm allowed endless display tweaking if I so choose. I can minimize blurring(not an issue with recorded material anyway) or black contrast levels.This isn't possible with a standard DVD player.
Off topic...but to be quite honest, I don't understand why anyone would own a standard DVD or Bluray player these days, especially one above $500.I know a lot of guys here haven't made the jump to PC based video, but once you do you'll never own a standalone player again! It won't be long, standalone players will be obsolete just as plasmas will.
Edits: 10/11/09 10/11/09 10/12/09 10/12/09 10/12/09 10/12/09
But, and this is a real question: why can no HTPC I've seen match even a PS3 quality for BD playback? And for $300 mind you.
Oh yeah, I'm sure there are some out there. I vaguely remember seeing a demo of one at a show. Its price was many times what a PS3 or BDP-83 (say) costs so I didn't pay much attention. Seemed more suitable for something like a pro development tool than something I would use at home, and since cost is of some significance...
I do like the idea though. And I do read some HTPC forums. Just haven't been impressed enough to want to dick around with it, and there is a LOT of dicking around required. My time isn't worth that much LOL, but a stand-alone is cheap enough and will be "junk" in a few years anyway, any PC even more so. I am a bit resistant to fooling around with computers at home when it's my job...and if I was in my 20s, say, this would be a lot more appealing and even a fun hobby (which it seems to be to everyone I know who uses an HTPC). I used to love fooling around with gear and building it, now I just want to set it up properly, once, and use it until it's time to throw it out...old fart syndrome.
Picture quality is no good if you have a ghost image on the screen. lolLOL...that's surprising. You say you've never seen an HTPC match a PS3?
Mine uses a Sony BD drive. I think you'd find it difficult to see any differences at home.You'd be amazed at how good a ripped Blu ray looks playing off hard drive. I'm talking compressed down to 2 Gbs or even less.
Does the PS3 give you Meta data on the movie? Poster artwork,movie synopsis and a run down of the actors. As well as allowing you to pick actors out of one movie and the Media Browser pull every movie in your collection with that actor in it. Can a PS3 record over the air HD television and internet HD TV as well? Can you store your Blu ray movies with a PS3? At this very moment I have over 160 blu ray movies on HD. Another 150 plus ripped DVDs. All accessible from other locations in the apartment on the network.
I bought mine fairly complete, just adding a video card and the BD drive.
I see guys on AV audio HTPC forum building HTPC's for $300 or $400.
I was too lazy to do that . lolPlus you can play your music library from there as well and surf the net.
I'm pretty sure a PS3 works much harder to play a Blu ray than my HTPCs do.
With the addition of DVXA (DirectX video acceleration). The media intensive programs are off loaded to the GPU. So basically the video cards memory is more utilized. From a few test I've ran, I'm using 5 to 8% CPU usage when playing my compressed blu rays. Basically cruising along.
Start time is 2 or 3 seconds when I hit play button not 60 seconds like some of the current standalone players.
Edits: 10/12/09 10/12/09 10/12/09
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what an HTPC can do. But it has to be better than a PS3 for $300 for playing BD. And not with further compressed video either, it's already REALLY compressed on a BD. And of course the HD audio. I just want a BD to look as good as it can, anything less than a PS3 isn't acceptable, not even a bit less (naturally, since I have the PS3 already). I always say, when people bug me (they expect I of all people would use an HTPC), that the PS3 *is* an HTPC. Except that it's not a PC LOL. So an A/V computer then. I do have Linux on it, but of course can't access any of the good stuff to do the A/V as "well" as Sony can. Putting Linux on a PS3 is about as far as I'll go dicking around with "PCs" in my own time. Maybe the PS4 will be more up my alley. The PS3 I think is a great proof of concept of what a pre-assembled tightly-integrated HTPC can do, so I'm convinced from that perspective.Edit: oh yeah, as far as that display "ghost" I claim to see, it is, according to other people, about as much physical reality as any other ghost. Maybe my memory is super-imposing itself from what I swear I did see once. Anyway, that bit of IR is normal for modern plasmas, it does go away very soon. I say I can see it when there's no signal into the display, which is no way to use an HT system anyway (but could be misleading in stores as plasmas are not "black" with no signal in).
Edits: 10/12/09
I hear ya cfraser. Well enjoy the PS3, there's nothing wrong with that. I enjoy my Xbox 360 as well(no blu ray). Though I normally use it just for goofing around with online games and playing music from one of the HTPCs. ;-)
Be well
Now it's called image retention (IR). So burn-in no longer happens. See how that works? :) Pretty common these days to give something we're all familiar with a new name so that its sins magically disappear (cough**corporations**cough).
I can assure you that, as that clip from Pioneer says, IR does still happen. Light IR can be made to virtually disappear eventually by doing what they said. As I mentioned in another recent thread, I could plainly see where the 4:3 TV DVD image sat after exclusively watching that stuff for many hours. I couldn't stand it with the 4:3 image stretched to fill the screen. You can only see it with the lights out and no signal in (which is brighter than a zero-level black signal). Or maybe *I* can see it because I know it's there, it really is just a ghost already. (fairly current Pio display)
It is not really as bad as it used to be, back when the phosphors were driven hard. But it isn't as carefree as LCD, thus their use for (especially) computers. Most modern games don't have nearly as much static display as the old ones did, so not quite so problematical. TV logos could be a problem, especially with junk channels like "The CW" which probably not many here watch (but their kids?)...
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Audio Asylum's own little "Village Idiot" - jrus
Never seen an LCD have image rentention. Probably after its been on the same fixed screen for several months none stop. It's several hours for a plasma.
It typically takes a day or so for image retention to occur on an LCD. Remedy is the same as for CRT or plasma.
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Audio Asylum's own little "Village Idiot" - jrus
Please fill me in on what LCD does this? You fellows must be confusing a rear projection LCD with a Flat panel LCD. Mine has never had image retention.... I mean zero. There's nothing in the menu to even correct for such an issue.The only panels I've seen with screen washers are plasmas not LCDs.Find me a manufacture's owner's manual that even warns of such issues. I can't find it any where in the ones I've looked in. So I'm lost on where you fellows are finding this info. I'm sure they would include this in the manual, if they include it in the manual for their plasma counterparts.
In fact check out Samsung Plasmas and LCD manuals. Panasonic as well.
One of the first statements you'll see under the plasma manuals is a warning about image retention. This isn't any where in the LCD or LED counterpart manuals.OK..I did some more research and came across a Mitsubishi manual stating image persistence not retention. Because of the liquid crystal always changing state due to electrical charges. This phenomenon isn't permanent as it can be with a Plasma. Even this is said to be extremely rare.
Edits: 10/13/09 10/13/09 10/13/09
I'm not confused at all. Perhaps you are.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Image-Sticking-in-LCD-TVs&id=556063
http://workstations.digitalmedianet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=25497
http://www.elotouch.com/Support/TechnicalSupport/pixels_image.asp
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Audio Asylum's own little "Village Idiot" - jrus
I found some info just before you posted your links on image persistence. This is not the same as image retention. Which is not permanent, it is extremely rare for this to be permanent in an LCD.I've used and abuse my LCD for 16 months now. Icons,start menus you name it on the screen everyday. There is no such issue. Try this with any plasma..any. You'll have Icons all over your screen when you're watching a movie. lol
I found one Mitsubishi manual stating this as well. Strange as I've never seen this with any of the ones I've seen installed in customers homes, not on Sony's either.
No confusion here my friend.
This is where as much as you guys hate to admit, LCDS/LEDs have the upper hand. They are more user friendly in these area. If Plasmas matched them in this area maybe we would have seen plasma screens in offices..not the case however.
Edits: 10/13/09 10/13/09 10/13/09 10/13/09 10/13/09
First of all, who are the "you guys" in, "This is where as much as you guys hate to admit...?"
I don't think I fall into that group, whatever it is. Perhaps you fall into the "you hate to admit you were wrong" group.
I specifically mentioned that LCDs suffer from image retention. That is all I mentioned. You challenged that. I provided backup documentation. Even though you obviously had no clue about the issue of image retention in LCD panels, you are continuing to claim that I was wrong and you were right all along. That's pathetic.
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Audio Asylum's own little "Village Idiot" - jrus
It is image persistence moron, not image retention. I stated I found one manual mentioning this, though it looks to be several years old. I'm around LCD screens daily, never have I seen the pixels stick on any of them. And yes several have static images all day at least 6 days of the week. I have a CRT monitor here with burn-in as well as a Plasma. The CRTs are even worse with this. I'll state again IMAGE PERSISTENCE and IMAGE RETENTION aren't the same thing. One is permanent one is not.Your header! "LCDs also suffer from image retention"
It is as you're trying to insinuate one is as significant as the other..not true. Images don't burn into an LCD screen.When I say you guys, I'm talking you and Murphy. Go find me some up to date manufactures manuals that have warnings of image persistence in LCDs.
Pathetic is some one who allows himself to believe a fading technology is cutting edge. There are a reasons plasma's are fading, cost is only one of the factors.
The manufactures plainly state this in the manuals as warnings, but some still think it is a thing of the past..that's pathetic.
Edits: 10/14/09 10/14/09 10/14/09 10/14/09 10/14/09 10/14/09 10/14/09
You are too uncouth and ignorant to be worth any more of my time.
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Audio Asylum's own little "Village Idiot" - jrus
Yup same to you buddy. LMAO
FYI: racerguy and I don't agree on too many subjects. However, on plasma vs LCD, I think we both read from the same page. That said, he'd probably prefer you not group the two of us together. Just so you know why he was "offended" at your remarks.
Cost: plasma manufacturing costs are still below LCD costs. So why have many manufacturers exited the plasma business? More profit in LCD due to the markups (not only do you have to make them, you have to sell them to third parties who want to make money). It really is a $ issue.
Misinformation and disinformation: years of incorrect spoutings by untrained, ignorant and downright stupid retail employees has had a delirious affect on plasma acceptance. Same goes for the online comunity. There's probably a 1:20 ratio (if not worse) of informed: uninformed pro-LCD users when it comes to the plasma vs LCD debate. You can blame the disinformation on the misinformed parties and the retailers. Too many unscrupulous retailers out there along with the ones that just want to make a buck to the ones who are forced, by upper management, to make a buck. How do they do it? Make the LCD sale -- by any means or tactics necessary. I've seen it and I've heard it. You don't know how many times I've wanted to yell "You lie!" and reach over the aisle and smack the shit out of a Best Buy employee for outright lying to a customer seeking information about plasmas.
Myths: so much bullshit in the stores and online, mountains made out of molehills, etc. It amounts to a smear compaign if you really want to get down to it. Think about the following for more than a second. How many decades did we have just Direct View CRT (what plasma technology is based on) and the world was a happy place to be? Then, all of a sudden (the last 6 or so years), that technology and its successor is bad bad bad? Gimme a fucking break!
Now, LCD is clearly the technology to get if there is certain criteria that is important to you or needed under certain circumstances. Anyone not willing to admit that isn't too bright or is a fanboy -- simple as that. However, the climate in this dabate is way off the mark mainly due to the issues stated above.
On the image retention and image persitence issue, I have only seen one LCD have a problem with ghost images remaining on the screen. That doesn't mean there aren't thousands more, but my eyes have only seen one. That's pretty damn good based on my experiences.
Agree Mr.Murphy,Sorry to offend you or racer dude(moron). As I stated earlier before I got in this debate. I still like my plasma. I do understand its limitations and its uses. It still has a good picture even with the image retention.
If they made them more PC friendly I would own another.From talking to a few buddies who've been in retail for 20 plus years. The companies pushing Plasmas at the beginning of their release lost shit loads of money. Only one out of every 10 or so produced made it to the stores before it was damaged from vibration. This may have helped kill them before they were accepted across the board. This is no longer a problem, but the damage was already done.
Edits: 10/14/09 10/14/09 10/14/09 10/14/09
Not in the least. On the contrary, you have been rather polite compared to some around here.
I've seen several reports of LCD screens suffering from what is called brown-in. It's probably from having the contrast and/or backlight cranked up to the max. The whites end up with a tannish tinge.
I can't recall ever seeing this myself. I surmise that it could be the actually aging of the display material more than burning in. Plastic does seem to have this issue as it ages. I would think it is not a problem for the LCD-LEDs using the hard glossy screens verses the matte.
I know one of the reports was from someone who had his LCD for a little over a year. Not exactly an "aged" item. And from what I remember, areas of the screen started to tinge tan/brown -- not retain an image. What I don't remember is what he used the display for (gaming, computing, movies, etc) and what the manufacturer said about this. I know of others who said they had similar experiences, but I really had no interest in the details. These were not LED LCD versions, but then again they have not been on the market for very long.
Image retention didn't take the place of burn-in because they're not the same thing.
Image retention is a short term "retaining" of the image on the screen which can be seen after you turn the display off or, if the display is new and/or has the settings cranked up, in the black bars when the display is on. Many new displays will exhibit this behavior for several weeks, after which the condition is no longer noticeable while the display is on. Some retention of an image after the display turns off is normal. This goes away after a few minutes.
Burn-in is typically a permanent condition which occurs due to the following: spending long hours playing video games and/or continuously displaying static (non-moving) images on the screen and/or watching material that doesn't fit the screen (using black bars for the unused part of the display) for long periods of time. What happens is that the unused parts of the screen age slower than the used parts. The more used pixels will begin to show a decrease in their light output.
There are several features that can be used to minimize these effects. Take a break from gaming every two hours and run an image (regular TV is all you need) that fills the screen while you take a break. If you watch a lot of 4:3 material, most displays allow you to change the color of the sidebars. You don't have to use black, as most displays will allow you to opt for dark gray or gray bars on the side. Because these pixels are now being used, they will age along with the pixels used for the main image. There are also menu related features that allow you to minimise adverse affects: pixel-shift, orbiter functions, white scroll, reverse image functions, etc. If you vary the programming aspect ratio so that the entire screen is used for some of your viewing, burn-in will not be a issue that you will have to deal with. Cranked settings (a non-calibrated display, basically) and/or no respect for the technology will get you a bad experience every time.
you will not even find the word burn-in in most cases, only image retention. So I was speaking from the point that "permanent image retention" is what used to be called burn-in.
I have seen real burn-in, like when you can easily read the screen when the display is turned off. LOL.
It's basically semantics and word play with a touch of marketing thrown in by the manufacturers. Fortunately, however much the manufacturers weave their tangled webs, reality is a static image that they cannot move. Of course, some people are fooled by the light show.
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