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In Reply to: RE: Lexicon busted passing Oppo off as a $3500 Blu-ray player posted by soundnut on January 18, 2010 at 06:37:19
Seems that Lexicon's involvement raised the bar for all Oppo owners--pretty ironic considering the lynch mob of Oppo fans attacking Lexicon.Excerpts: I asked again whether Oppo and Lexicon had worked on the BD-30 and learned that in fact they had. Marc Kellom, Harman International’s head of High Performance A/V products, indicated that the same supplier that builds the Oppo player in its entirety manufactures core elements of the BD-30 in China. Final assembly, firmware loading, and quality control testing for the BD-30, however, take place in Lexicon’s facility based in Elkhart, Indiana.
Kellom explained that during the development of both players, Lexicon had evaluated the then-current Oppo design and suggested some video-related changes—changes that were eventually incorporated in production versions of both players. Similarly, Lexicon bore the costs of having the Oppo design put through conformance testing relative to various worldwide consumer safety standards and to put it through THX qualification testing, again leading to changes that were incorporated into both players.
Knowing that it would sell its version of the player through its upscale, service-oriented retail dealer channel (where the standing expectation is that dealers will provide expert custom installation/integration services), Lexicon decided that its version of the player would need several changes vis-à-vis a standard Oppo player. First, it required a significant more beefy and elegant looking chassis (and one strong enough to support rack mounting), plus firmware modifications that would make the player easier for dealers to integrated with other Lexicon high-performance A/V products (e.g., the MC-12). Second, the player required formal THX certification—if only for the sake of consistency with other THX-certified Lexicon products. Third, the BD-30 would need to ship with somewhat different accessories than those that come with the standard Oppo player, including a set of rack-mounting “ears” plus a copy of the well-regarded Joe Kane Productions Digital Video Essentials HD Basics, Blu-ray Edition HD set-up toolkit disk.
The upshot, then, is that the BD-30 takes the core chassis, circuit boards, and drive mechanism of a standard Oppo BDP-83 universal Blu-ray player, and mounts them within a heavily built Lexicon enclosure, “re-flashes” the player’s firmware EPROMs with Lexicon-spec code, and then performs its own battery of final quality control tests in the US.
At any rate, the video and audio performance characteristics of the Lexicon BD-30 and Oppo BDP-83 are essentially identical, with one small difference. The much heavier chassis casework of the BD-30 makes its mechanical operation noticeably quieter than the Oppo.
Given that The Perfect Vision has already done an in-depth review of the BDP-83, we have elected not to do a full review of the Lexicon. However, if we had prepared a full review, the concluding paragraphs might have read something like this:
The Lexicon BD-30 is an excellent universal Blu-ray player, offering exemplary video performance and very good, though not quite great, sound quality. I expect the player will find favor among customers who appreciate the benefits and services that Lexicon’s excellent retail dealer network can provide.
Even so, there is an element of disappointment here, and it revolves around the fact that the BD-30 does not, apart from its somewhat quieter mechanical operation, improve upon the core A/V performance of the inexpensive Oppo BDP-83 upon which it is based. Given the BD-30’s hefty price tag, I think customers might well have expected more.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Edits: 01/28/10Follow Ups:
The reason the DV-983H, BDP-83 and its derivatives are so special is due to DVDO's ABT video processor.
"...Lexicon had evaluated the then-current Oppo design and suggested some video-related changes—changes that were eventually incorporated in production versions of both players."
WTF would oppo consult with Lexicon about the video processing when DVDO, who is the real source of oppo's fame , STF knows a ton more about video processing than Lexicon?
Not hatin' on you Jazz: just an inquiring mind wantin' ta know. Not that it really matters, as I don't pay for audio "jewelry". And while I feel a little sad for those who pay for Lexicon "bling bling" (which, if you're honest, really does amount to a faceplate), they deserve to be screwed -- even if they're screwing themselves -- because anyone spending that amount of money should be responsible enough to do at least some research beyond, you know, the...
faceplate.
Probably a connectivity issue or options like PIP or zoom. Who cares?
What if you want the Oppo but need to rack-mount it? Or you're a wealthy HT owner who works with a dealer/installer specializing in Lexicon gear...you really feel sorry for such people?
Really, this whole matter is blown so far out of whack to demonize Lexicon it is pathetic. I don't feel sorry for the few people buying the Lexicon. I feel sorry for people in Haiti. But the Lexicon haters have managed to appear extremely whiney without suffering any misfortune. Quite a feat. Makes me shake my head in bewilderment.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
But that's the way the high end is, isn't it? Teleportation tweaks anyone?
There are people with money who are taken advantage of by installers. These people aren't tech savvy enough to know that the $3.5k Lexicon is just a $.5k oppo in a heavier chassis. They just hire who they believe to be a reputable installer or one another wealthy friend recommended. And to the cleaners they go. I feel a little sorry for them (the installer is taking them to the cleaners). However, if you don't do the research yourself, you're going to get screwed Big Time eventually. I don't feel sorry for that aspect of those people.
I would be glad to help you out if you truly want me to reply to your rack-mount question. And I guarantee it won't cost you an extra $300, much less $3k. But I doubt you really want to go there.
I feel sorry for the Haitian children -- not the adults: the children have no say in where they live. Once an adult, if you choose to live in that area, you accept what nature delivers. And sometimes, you're delivered to your Maker.
By you. Your messages are the ones that come across as fanatical. Do your reviews have the same passion?
-Wendell
We must read differently. Lexicon, in my opinion, has clearly perpetrated a fraud with this player. Chris Martens' blog, on this topic, indicates he would do well as a congressional staffer. What a load of rationalization.
-Wendell
Two points that show why Lexicon's collaboration with Oppo was advantageous and why Lexicon can charge a premium for its target market, namely existing Lexicon owners:
1. Lexicon worked with Oppo on the design, and Lexicon's recommendations were incorporated by Oppo.
2. Lexicon assembled the rebadge in the US (expensive) and installed firmware that optimizes how the player works with other Lexicon gear.
Audioholics went on a smear campaign by pretending the Lexicon and Oppo were targeting the same market and that Lexicon didn't have a relationship with Oppo. The Lexicon BD-30 is for anyone who has a Lexicon pre/pro/amp setup and can afford the premium price. Otherwise, buy the Oppo. No one is asking you to be thankful that Lexicon was involved and had its improvements incorporated in the Oppo design, but the least you could do is stop this nonsense about fraud, which is a term with legal ramifications that are clearly not applicable here. You decided to join the Audioholics lynch mob like a lemming. But that was then. This is now. It's time to snap out of it.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Thanks for telling me what my opinion should be. You're an apologist to the point of seeming to have a vested interest in the issue. I don't have a dog in the fight but know when a business practice smells."At any rate, the video and audio performance characteristics of the Lexicon BD-30 and Oppo BDP-83 are essentially identical, with one small difference. The much heavier chassis casework of the BD-30 makes its mechanical operation noticeably quieter than the Oppo."
Tell me again how a company is justified in a seven fold retail price increase for machines with identical performance. THX certification was for marketing purposes. Flashing firmware is trivial. They are charging $3000 for the casework which is fine as long as they are upfront about it.
-Wendell
Edits: 01/28/10
This isn't a baby carriage that is chopping off fingertips, or pet food with a poisonous ingredient or cars where the accelerator peddle sticks. No one is being hurt here and nothing was stolen. No one is going to accidently buy the Lexicon and then realize they were robbed, like you audioholics dudes are pretending. The reason Lexicon is charging a premium is because a certain amount of time and cost went into the project with Oppo, the assembly is done in Indiana instead of Taiwan and the rebadging and firmware means that Lexicon can charge a premium to its clientele. They'll only buy the Lexicon for the reason I've cited three or four times now, which is they have other Lexicon products and want an all-Lexicon setup where the firmware is seamless with the other gear.And no, I don't have a vested interest in this. I just think it's the height of ignorance and slander to accuse Lexicon of fraud. We all knew about the rebadge last summer, along with Ayre and Theta, which are also based on the Oppo and cost thousands more than the Lexicon.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Edits: 01/28/10
Don't want to get involved in the discussion too much LOL, we did that many months ago elsewhere(s), but the only reported firmware difference is the Oppo logo was replaced with the Lexicon one.Well, that and the Lexicon firmware may not be as up-to-date as the Oppo FW, since I don't know if Oppo will give Lex time to change logos in new versions before Oppo releases it to the public. Certainly the current Lex FW isn't as up-to-date as the current BDP-83 FW...not a big diff for many people, but some "higher end" wants were addressed.
Edit: oh yeah, one other thing the new BDP-83 FW seemed to do, though I have no proof: make the BDP-83 noticeably quieter. I could swear the fan comes on less often and slower than before with the newest Jan./10 FW, and also the drawer opens and closes smoother/quieter. Both these things are apparently controllable via FW. I sit 9' from the 83 and can just barely hear those noises now with some strain, whereas I easily could before (no audio on of course) and I haven't moved the 83 since I got it ~7 months ago. Maybe even quieter than a nice box can suppress them if the "old" FW is being used...just saying...but don't know.
Edits: 01/28/10
> > Don't want to get involved in the discussion too much LOL, we did that many months ago elsewhere(s), but the only reported firmware difference is the Oppo logo was replaced with the Lexicon one. < <That's what Audioholics reported, but they didn't test both players with other Lexicon gear to see the if it does integrate easier in an all Lexicon system. Given that the Audioholics reviewer didn't test it either player with other Lexicon gear, how would he know the difference?
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Edits: 01/28/10
But I think we have to consider that the primary features people would really get on, the audio and video "processing" hardware, is the same in both models (based on their inspection). Any differences would then be mainly operational functionality adjusted by FW. Oppo themselves have said that many other attributes people might like cannot be offered because the chip sets are a limiting factor, not firmware. By "processing" I am including the analog output stages, anything that directly affects what we see/hear after taken from the disc.If somebody asked me for an opinion on which model to buy, Lex or Oppo, and I said the Oppo, I would not think the person the slightest bit "stupid" if they bought the Lex instead. That is assuming $3.5k to them is about as financially "significant" as $500 is to me. There are plenty of people in that situation. It's nicer looking (opinion) and more exclusive and has a nice name and what the hell...
I think at some point we have to stop being audio/video "mathematicians" and come to the reasonable conclusion that for all practical purposes two things are "the same", even if they aren't mathematically congruent.
Edits: 01/28/10
I think that misses the point. Under their agreement, Lexicon made design recommendations to Oppo. Those recommendations were all taken, according to Marc Kellom, Harman International’s head of High Performance A/V products. So the fact that the Lexicon and Oppo are the same implies that Lexicon, at its own expense and expertise, brought the quality of the Oppo up to its standards.For rabid Oppo fans to then parade around the internet acting like Lexicon broke the 10 commandments is quite ironic, considering they are enjoying Lexicon's improvements to the Oppo without compensating Lexicon. So if anyone is being robbed here, it may well be Lexicon.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Edits: 01/28/10
Is it not agreed that that's a larger improvement than anything Harman suggested? Or was that their suggestion, and they chose not to use it? I say you're travelling a lonely road my friend...which is not a bad thing. :)
I do have Harman and Lex gear in two of my rooms. Oppo also in one of those two, and another room too. I'm not biased. Just cheap.
Yes, it makes more sense to criticize Lexicon for not OEM'ing the SE version of the Oppo, but I suppose the priority was placed on HDMI with analog performance an afterthought.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
I haven't attacked you once during this exchange. I expressed an opinion. You can't deal with someone who disagrees with your position. It's best we
drop this as it is going nowhere.
BTW, I had never heard of audioholics before this thread began on the Lexicon/Oppo player.
-Wendell
You're pretty mild compared to the hordes of irate high end haters who saw this Audioholics report as proof that mid-fi and low-fi is all anyone needs. They are ignorant. And so is the Audioholics reviewer who didn't understand the relationship between Lexicon and Oppo or Lexicon's target market.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
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