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In Reply to: RE: Well, this thread kicked off with statistics about the entire installed base of game consoles posted by Jazz Inmate on July 02, 2007 at 17:32:46
>>Yes, but that wouldn't have stopped me from adopting the superior format and extolling its virtues<<:-)
>>, which I think is the obligation of any serious consumer. Calling people "fanboy" is dismissive of valid points.<<
Would you prefer to be called a "cheerleader" instead, since you are "adopting the superior format and extolling its virtues?" :-)
>>1. Most blu-ray discs (including all from Warner and Paramount and some others, I think) do not use region encoding. Its implementation comes at the discretion of the studio.<<
Since I haven't seen most blu-ray discs, I'd have to accept your statement at face value; however, this article says you are wrong.
FYI, implementation of region coding in legacy DVD-V was at the discretion of the studio too. They implemented it in a big way, and unwittingly created an entire sub-industry dedicated to trying to get around it. This time they've decided to make it "more robust" in an effort to keep consumers' choices limited.
>>2. The concern about local releases/region encoding will not outweigh the concern about audio and video quality among knowledgeable consumers.<<
This is a silly, and rather self-centered statement. Technological prowess and impressive spec sheets may be the most important factor for YOU, but other "knowledgeable consumers" may feel that content availability, portability, utility, and especially content availability (yes, I'm repeating on purpose) outweigh minor differences in audio and video quality. One only needs to look at the (lack of) success of other niche micro-market products like Laserdisc, DVD-Audio, and SACD to see proof of this. Region coding and other DRM bells-and-whistles tend to scare off knowledgeable consumers, not the other way around.
>>Yeah, but the notion that we can't choose one preferred format and discuss why it is better than the other and why it is apparently ahead in sales without being branded "fanboys" is also incredibly annoying.<<
I promise I'll just call you a blu-ray cheerleader instead :D
Edits: 07/02/07Follow Ups:
No, I don't think adopting or being happy with blu-ray makes me a fanboy or a cheerleader. If I thought HD-DVD was the way to go, I'd have adopted that. I'm not following HD-DVD adopters around, calling them HD-DVD fanboys or cheerleaders. So there's no good reason it's happening to me.Technological limitations of content storage are far more important than the issue of regional encoding. First of all, we live in a world of laws. Some of those laws cover intellectual property like the software on your discs. While it may seem like a nuisance to you that you can get The Producers on blu-ray in Japan, but only on HD-DVD in the US, that is the studios' legal rights to distribute the film. Studios, like record labels, ought to be encouraged to find ways to protect their intellectual property as long as it doesn't compromise performance or quality. But beyond that, quality should be what HDTV is all about and quality equals data rates and data rates equal storage capacity. Blu-ray is simply is superior.
There is a way to make HDTV attractive to both consumers and content providers and the simple fact is that blu-ray was designed with both sides of these issues taken into account. That's not hype. That's cold, sober fact, borne out by sales figures and studio support. Even DUI sold his toshiba.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
> > No, I don't think adopting or being happy with blu-ray makes me a fanboy or a cheerleader. < <
Oh, I agree 100%. Just being an adopter doesn't push someone into fanboyism or cheerleader status. It's the "extolling its virtues" thing you mentioned in your previous post that makes someone a cheerleader :-)
> > While it may seem like a nuisance to you that you can get The Producers on blu-ray in Japan, but only on HD-DVD in the US, that is the studios' legal rights to distribute the film. Studios, like record labels, ought to be encouraged to find ways to protect their intellectual property as long as it doesn't compromise performance or quality. < <
If all you care about are the latest Hollywood blockbusters, fad films, and endless reissues of Hollywood "classics," I suppose your simplistic view of the situation would fit.
The facts are, however, that we live in a global economy, with the beginnings of global culture. Region Coding smacks of a provincial marketing model, not from the standpoint of controlling lawful distribution as you posit, but from the standpoint of limiting access to cultural material. Should a Polish-speaking person living in the US be required to fly to Poland just to watch a Polish-language movie? Yes, he can order a fully-legitimate, licensed and studio-blessed copy from overseas, because we live in a global economy, but due to provincial Region Coding, he may not be able to watch it. Instead, he would have to hope that some media distribution company has an interest in releasing the Polish film outside of its primary market. The market for Polish films is not very big outside of Poland, so the likelihood of this happening is nil.
Again, I understand that people who are only interested in Hollywood's Greatest Hits may not care about this, but let me try to put it in terms that you may be able to identify with:
What if Sony had implemented Region Coding in SACD? It was actually discussed, and there were people pushing for this. Region Coding in SACD would mean that none of the JSACDs and European imports you currently own would be playable on your SCD-1. I suspect that if this were the situation, SACD would have been a non-starter for you. Can you not see how this could make blu-ray a non-starter for some people, despite its technological potential?
> > But beyond that, quality should be what HDTV is all about and quality equals data rates and data rates equal storage capacity. Blu-ray is simply is superior. < <
Superior on paper, yes. So far, the bulk of the superiority claims are coming from blu-ray fanboys and cheerleaders. Opinions that appear more objective seem unanimous that little to no difference can be seen between HD DVD and blu-ray at this point. I mentioned to you before that it is too early to declare blu-ray the winner. You denied doing this, but here you are doing it again. I still say it's too early to make such a call.
> > Even DUI sold his toshiba. < <
I can't BELIEVE you're using DUI as an example! LOL!
> > If all you care about are the latest Hollywood blockbusters, fad films, and endless reissues of Hollywood "classics," I suppose your simplistic view of the situation would fit. < <That isn't all I'm interested in but you need to face the fact that the major studios and their blockbusters are going to drive the direction of HDTV formats.
> > The facts are, however, that we live in a global economy, with the beginnings of global culture. < <
That's fine, but piracy is a legit problem, costing the studios and recording industry million$. We may yet find ourselves in a utopia where everyone pays an equal price for content and shares in it across the globe. But until that magic, majestic moment happens, studios should be encouraged to use any tools at their disposal to protect their intellectual property in the regions where they own it.
> > What if Sony had implemented Region Coding in SACD? It was actually discussed, and there were people pushing for this. Region Coding in SACD would mean that none of the JSACDs and European imports you currently own would be playable on your SCD-1. < <
I may have bought a player capable of playing JSACDs or I may not have adopted, but let's stop engaging in what-ifs and talk about what is. Blu-rays, like SACDs, are not subject to regional encoding in Japan. You can order The Producers blu-ray from Japan and enjoy it on your PS3.
> > I suspect that if this were the situation, SACD would have been a non-starter for you. Can you not see how this could make blu-ray a non-starter for some people, despite its technological potential? < <
I could, except that the type of regional encoding you are against has not been implemented and if the studios ever feel they need to implement it because HDTV has truly become embraced by the mass market, you can bet your arse there will be HD-DVD II that provides the means for regional encoding to the exact same extent as blu-ray. In other words, this is a complete non-issue in terms of the observations between blu-ray and hd-dvd.
> > Superior on paper, yes. So far, the bulk of the superiority claims are coming from blu-ray fanboys and cheerleaders. < <
See, this is where I'm not understanding you. Are you saying that 24-bit 48 kHz lossless PCM sounds as good as DolbyTruHD? Because I have stood in Dolby Labs in SF and listened to the difference, and I can tell you there is a difference. Are you saying that data storage capacity and data rates don't matter? That it's just a lie propagated by blu-ray adopters?
> > I mentioned to you before that it is too early to declare blu-ray the winner. You denied doing this, but here you are doing it again. I still say it's too early to make such a call. < <
I said it was too early to declare a winner and say blu-ray has killed HD-DVD, but it is not too early to say that blu-ray is the superior format, both for consumers and for content providers/studios. As you yourself have pointed out, superior formats have not always won in the past.
> > I can't BELIEVE you're using DUI as an example! LOL! < <
I can't believe he figured out the advantages of blu-ray over hd-dvd before you did!
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
> > That isn't all I'm interested in but you need to face the fact that the major studios and their blockbusters are going to drive the direction of HDTV formats. < <
I wonder where you got the idea that I ever disputed this. It certainly wasn't in anything I've written.
> > studios should be encouraged to use any tools at their disposal to protect their intellectual property in the regions where they own it. < <
I totally disagree with your stance on this issue. 'Nuff said.
> > I could, except that the type of regional encoding you are against has not been implemented < <
You're wrong. It has indeed been implemented, exactly in the fashion I deplore. Here's a list someone put together showing some of the discs on the market, and whether they are playback-restricted by region. By and large, the older, less desirable releases are not locked out, the newer ones are.
> > Blu-rays, like SACDs, are not subject to regional encoding in Japan. You can order The Producers blu-ray from Japan and enjoy it on your PS3. < <
You're wrong. Region Coding has indeed been implemented in Japan. The thing is that the blu-ray Region Code for Japan is the same as for the US (Region A). So yes, you can take a disc coded for Japan and play it in a US player, but you can't take a disc coded and locked-out for Japan/US and play it in a European player.
> > you can bet your arse there will be HD-DVD II that provides the means for regional encoding to the exact same extent as blu-ray. < <
I wouldn't bet that. There was a REASON why Region Coding was not implemented in HD DVD, and it was not a technical reason. The current HD DVD players enforce legacy DVD-V region coding, forgoshsakes! Even if a mythical HD DVD II with Region Coding should emerge, one can always choose not to buy into it. The cork is already out of the bottle on HD DVD though.
Nevertheless, you specifically said that we shouldn't engage in what-ifs, and here you are doing it.
> > See, this is where I'm not understanding you. Are you saying that 24-bit 48 kHz lossless PCM sounds as good as DolbyTruHD? < <
I'm afraid I'm not understanding you, because this sentence makes absolutely no sense. Are you comparing identical lossless PCM to lossless PCM and saying there is a difference???? Or are you comparing an apple to an orange, and saying they are different? Of course they are! Please clarify the point you are trying to get across.
> > Are you saying that data storage capacity and data rates don't matter? That it's just a lie propagated by blu-ray adopters? < <
No, that's not what I'm saying. Try reading what I wrote again.
> > I can't believe he figured out the advantages of blu-ray over hd-dvd before you did! < <
Well, let's see - you've called him a troll in the past, and pretty much accused him of making stuff up. But now you prepared to believe what he posts just because it fits your biases? That's quite a shift in viewpoint! :-)
> > > > That isn't all I'm interested in but you need to face the fact that the major studios and their blockbusters are going to drive the direction of HDTV formats. < <
I wonder where you got the idea that I ever disputed this. It certainly wasn't in anything I've written. < <
It's not that you ever disputed it; it's that you have open disdain for the blockbusters as if it's not tied in at all to what you want. I'm just reminding you that it is tied in to what you want.
> > > > studios should be encouraged to use any tools at their disposal to protect their intellectual property in the regions where they own it. < <
I totally disagree with your stance on this issue. 'Nuff said. < <
Well, out of curiosity, where do you draw the line? Sharing between geographical regions where different studios own different titles is ok. So why have studio distribution at all? Is piracy ok? Where are you drawing the line? You can't say regional encoding is unfair without advocating some degree of lawlessness in terms of content ownership.
> > You're wrong. It has indeed been implemented, exactly in the fashion I deplore. Here's a list someone put together showing some of the discs on the market, and whether they are playback-restricted by region. By and large, the older, less desirable releases are not locked out, the newer ones are. < <
But those newer ones are all available in NA, so it's a nonissue.
> > You're wrong. Region Coding has indeed been implemented in Japan. The thing is that the blu-ray Region Code for Japan is the same as for the US (Region A). So yes, you can take a disc coded for Japan and play it in a US player, but you can't take a disc coded and locked-out for Japan/US and play it in a European player. < <
Ok, I'm wrong, but I can play the disc, so again, it's a nonissue.
> > I wouldn't bet that. There was a REASON why Region Coding was not implemented in HD DVD, and it was not a technical reason. < <
Exactly. And it's one of the reasons that only one studio has come out fully supporting HD-DVD (for now) where the rest will never exclusively support it.
> > > > See, this is where I'm not understanding you. Are you saying that 24-bit 48 kHz lossless PCM sounds as good as DolbyTruHD? < <
I'm afraid I'm not understanding you, because this sentence makes absolutely no sense. Are you comparing identical lossless PCM to lossless PCM and saying there is a difference???? < <
Nope. DolbyTruHD involves an algorithm that compresses the code and requires less space on the disc. They may market it as lossless, but lossless PCM is different.
> > Or are you comparing an apple to an orange, and saying they are different? Of course they are! Please clarify the point you are trying to get across. < <
The point I am trying to get across is that greater disc capacity will let you have better quality.
> > > > Are you saying that data storage capacity and data rates don't matter? That it's just a lie propagated by blu-ray adopters? < <
No, that's not what I'm saying. Try reading what I wrote again. < <
I've been reading every post in this thread. I keep saying that blu-ray provides greater storage capacity and is therefore capable of greater quality and you keep saying it's just hype and that I'm a fanboy and cheerleader. I am trying to get you to acknowledge that there are features of blu-ray that do make it superior to HD-DVD regardless of hype or cheerleading, and the storage capacity issue is a no-brainer.
> > Well, let's see - you've called him a troll in the past, and pretty much accused him of making stuff up. But now you prepared to believe what he posts just because it fits your biases? That's quite a shift in viewpoint! < <
Well actually I was just kidding around. I was pretty amused when DUI said he sold his Toshiba. But yeah, if he's seen the light I'd think everyone should!
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
> > > It's not that you ever disputed it; it's that you have open disdain for the blockbusters as if it's not tied in at all to what you want. < < <
I have an open disdain for most blockbusters, I'll admit it. My wife likes them a bit, but I could do without seeing 90+% of them.
> > > But those newer ones are all available in NA, so it's a nonissue. < < <
So anything that doesn't effect you personally doesn't count? BTW, there are Blu-ray discs coming out in Europe, that aren't here.
> > > Nope. DolbyTruHD involves an algorithm that compresses the code and requires less space on the disc. They may market it as lossless, but lossless PCM is different. < < <
The difference is that uncompressed PCM takes up more space. Both are lossless.
> > > The point I am trying to get across is that greater disc capacity will let you have better quality. < < <
That's an assumption, not a given.
Jack
Yeah, as I said earlier, blockbusters may not be our cup of tea, but they do tend to dictate the direction of the industry. Especially in matters of format.
As for the current implementation of regional encoding, it's a nonissue if it doesn't affect me, you or anyone else.
As for DolbyTruHD, as I said, I was invited to listen to this and to the uncompressed PCM in the mixing room of Dolby Labs in San Francisco, as Sony was preparing to author a demo blu-ray disc. There was a difference and to my ears (and the ears of the Sony audio guy), the unmolested PCM was better. DolbyTruHD does compress the PCM and uncompressing it requires another step in the D-> A.
If greater disc capacity can allow 7.1 PCM where HD-DVD requires greater compression, I'm all for it.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
> > > Yeah, as I said earlier, blockbusters may not be our cup of tea, but they do tend to dictate the direction of the industry. Especially in matters of format. < < <
That must be why they lost money last quartet, and are shutting down some stores.
> > > As for the current implementation of regional encoding, it's a nonissue if it doesn't affect me, you or anyone else. < < <
But is DOES effect me, and it certainly effects Europeans, that's the whole point.
I can inport HD DVDs from Europe that I might not be able to with BD. Europeans (Aussies too) can increase their collections by inporting HD DVDs from the US, that aren't available there.
I'll take your word on the PCM, but I'll leave the high end audio for my stereo. Movie sound is secondary for me. It certainly won't be the biggest selling point for the masses. Do you think they'll tell the difference with their $200 Bose surround sound?
I couldn't care less about 7.1.
Jack
available on HD video formats. The existing compromises with 25G and 30G discs suggest to me movies which take advantage of Blu-ray 50G disc bandwidth and storage capacity provide the best possible AQ and PQ which I feel is necessary to help separate HD video from DVD. The HD-DVD mantra of "good enough" just isn't good enough IMHO. But then again, I'm shooting for the very best video/audio from the currently available video formats which perhaps unfortunately separates me from your average consumer.
Anyone posting on this forum should already have an interest in the best possible audio quality for their home audio systems. They should also be interested in the best possible audio and video quality for their Home Theater systems. Blu-ray does the best job of and has the highest potential of delivering the best possible AQ and PQ capable of today's Hi-def video consumer formats. That is, until the next generation Ultra HD formats with Terabyte portable/hard drive/holographic/?? media becomes available.
So far, there hasn't been any proof that the higher bandwidth or greater storage has given a superior picture. While Disney tried to do this with the Pirates movies, recent reviews have have said that Paramount's Black Snake Moan is just as good PQ and both BD and HD have the same AVC encoding.From the Highdefdigest review:
"Boasting superb visuals equal to 'Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest,' 'Black Snake Moan' features reference quality video that quite simply has to be seen to be believed. The Blu-ray and HD DVD versions are identical to my eye and fans of both formats should be ecstatic with this release."
Pity I'm not interested in the movie.
JackEDIT: OK, curiosity got the better of me, so I ordered it.:-)
However, the HD-DVD has an extra DDplus soundtrack, presumably because the Blu-ray is a single layer 25G which presumably didn't have the space. In this case, the HD-DVD's better storage allowed for a better soundtrack. Now if they had used a 50G Blu-ray disc, it would be an different matter entirely.
A better example might be "Nature's Journey". a music video which tries to maximize the available storage/bit rates for both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. Both versions use VC-1 and DTS encoding; the Blu-Ray uses the higher bitrate encodes (lossless for audio). I expect the differences to be subtle, but perhaps noticeable in the better HT setups.
According to insiders over at AVS, Paramount doesn't use the same encodes for both formats. Sony does the AVC for BD, and an idependant house does the AVC for HD DVD.
Jack
Since the Pirates movies were supposed to prove BD's extra space and bits gave a better picture than HD can *ever* get, BSM, pretty much shows that's not true.
I have little faith in RBfilms' neutrality. He's already saying that his next project will be BD only. He has openly bashed HD DVD because it limited the bitrate of MPEG-2 that he used for Chronos (thats why VC-1 and AVC are better), claiming that MPEG-2 was superior to all other codecs. Add to this the fact that he claimed he got no help from M$ with the compressing, and I'm skeptical that it will be VC-1 at its best. I'll probably pass on this disc, I was rather disappointed with Chronos.
Jack
PS. He'll be using HD15 and BD25s for this. I expect his BD to be better, since that is his preference-it'll be a shot at the HD folks that gave him grief for using MPEG-2 on Chronos.
POTC was a bad enough waste of money; Yes the PQ was VERY GOOD but not perfect; probably better than King Kong IMHO. YMMV.
I agree MPEG2 and single layer HD-DVD are probably a bad combo, but I certainly agree with RBFILMs' concerns on the bandwidth/storage capacity limitations of HD-DVD. And if it takes a lot of TLC to make sure a low bit rate VC-1 encode doesn't ruin the PQ, then that's another argument against the use of low bitrate VC-1 (and another partial dig at HD-DVD). They appear to have legitimate concerns about the use of HD-DVD IMHO.
Are single layer discs (Blu-ray or HD-DVD) that much cheaper than dual layer discs ? I'd expect single layer discs might be appropriate for 1 hour music videos (at least with Blu-ray).
I watched BSM last night. The movie was actually pretty good. The PQ was very good, but didn't blow me away-didn't make me go "WOW".
I read Richard's tirades over at AVS forum, an have come to the conclusion that I really don't like him. I won't go into details or name calling, but he likes to air his dirty laundry in public. I also think the VC-1 comparison will be suspect. I seriously doubt if I'll be buying any of his products in the future.
Side Note: I did order a Samsung BDP-1200, that should get here by next week. I ordered 4-5 movies from Amazon, and that will do me with regards to BD for a while.
> > Blu-ray does the best job of and has the highest potential of delivering the best possible AQ and PQ capable of today's Hi-def video consumer formats. < <
The same thing was said about Laserdisc. Quite a success, wasn't it?
I just hope HD-DVD doesn't interfere with Blu-Ray's admittedly slim chances of success.
.
.
Even without MP3s, those formats wouldn't have caught on. Nobody was interested in better audio. Apathy killed them-we'll have to see about the video equivelent.
Jack
Is what IMHO were the chief reasons why it didn't go further. Even though a CD layer is now included on a hybrid and at very little add'l cost and most agree on the hi-rez forum the SACD layer exceeds the sound of the CD is basically irrelavant I suppose for most.
I suppose the addition of another player didn't help matters but there is a double whammy with HD video because one also needs a display capable to show distinct differences.
But that's probably only because I haven't reached a certain minimum threshold of vinyl collection to warrant a TT/phonostage investment.
That musical niche has wholeheartedly embraced SACD, and many of its small labels are still making SACDs, AFAIK. Classicstoday.com still wites reviews of them. :-)
Jack
Still I'd bite on "pure DSD" titles of first rate Symphonies (e.g. NY Philharmonic).
.
I've said repeatedly this war isn't between blu-ray and HD-DVD but between HDTV and SDTV. At the same time plasmas were getting bigger and 1080P was coming to market, other manufacturers were making TVs smaller and putting broadcasts on iPods and computer windows.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
iPods and downloads are fine for YouTube stuff, but I don't think there's much of a market for this amongst movie-watchers.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
Having the disc in-hand works much better for me; but then again, I don't rent movies anymore. HD downloads via the internet is a nonplayer at least in the near-term; I don't expect the infrastructure will support real-time downloads anytime soon.
...to playback cable/sat-sourced HD movies anytime, without accessing an outside server. Amongst my non-videophile friends and neighbors (and my wife too), this is the current popular approach. No one goes to Blockbuster anymore.
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